Quiz

[PSBoy]

Snowrider,

Based on The Complete Encyclopedia of Skiing by Bob Barnes, the answer should be A. The statement is extracted as follows.

"Fine edge control movements begin in the ankles.", P.25

[snowrider]

I guess the other is inclination

I can only suggest that you look back where the answer comes from (hint: I think you can find answer in PSIA 199x technical manual. I can probably tell you the page # but that will be too easy. To save you some time, start from page 60, and look at even number year)

Skier888 - you are amazing. How do you know that I quoted from the Technical Manual? Are you also in the industry?

Yes, the other one is inclination.

[skier888]

Snowrider,

Based on The Complete Encyclopedia of Skiing by Bob Barnes, the answer should be A. The statement is extracted as follows.

"Fine edge control movements begin in the ankles.", P.25

Snowrider is looking for answer in his PSIA division but that does not make it correct. I think it may be based on legacy document and is out of date because of shape ski development. He said he had the answer wrong too. Maybe he is not wrong after all.

Not trying to debate as I know what kind of skiing I like so I go to the source to learn. To be blunt, I spend a lot of money and time to gain these knowledge and I don't feel like to freely give them away and have to convince others about it. As I said, our viewpoint is shaped by the world we observe.

This is my experience. Hip movement is important if you ski one-legged or doing white pass lean/turn. I would say it is a major component when I do it because I can't tip under this situation. In two-legged skiing, one can initiate with free foot tipping. Phantom move mentioned above tip with free foot, not the stance foot.

Cause and effect:

We try to learn by doing what we observe. Often times what we see are effects and that make people perform the wrong movements. It is important to see what cause what we observe. We once thought the earth is flat and is the center of the universe. Even since works that same way.

Like people will ask "Why nobody carves any more?" but if you change the question to something like "Why nobody uses carving technique anymore?" You will get two complete different answers. The formal asks about result/effect while the later asks about cause.

This leads us to what is passive and what is active. Pivot is not a Pivot. Inclination is not inclination. Is it the cause or effect that you see

[snowrider]

If C is the answer from PSIA, then it is clearly different from what some other ski schools teach:

http://skiing.about.com/od/skiingtip1/q ... t-Hips.htm

YouTube - Ski Practice 7: Harald Harb's "Phantom Move"



Also see this on high-end racing techniques:

http://www.youcanski.com/en/coaching/inclination.htm

Thanks for the info. About the about.com's article, we can just ignore that because the author's credential is not convincing. (Mike Doyle is a journalist but not a pro skier.)
http://skiing.about.com/bio/Mike-Doyle-18024.htm

About Harb's video, I don't see any conflict between that and our question (about edging control). (Note that HH used to be a member of PSIA demo team. I guess that his skill of doing business is even better than that of skiing.)

About youcanski, I don't see any conflict between that and our question either. Also, it mentions, "... what produces the best GS turn has been somewhat unclear".

[snowrider]

Snowrider,

Based on The Complete Encyclopedia of Skiing by Bob Barnes, the answer should be A. The statement is extracted as follows.

"Fine edge control movements begin in the ankles.", P.25

Thanks for the info. I am going to make a conclusion in my next post.

[snowrider]

The conclusion is ...

That was a bad question because it did not tell what types of turns it's asking. The technique for long radus turns is different from that for short radius turns.

Long radius turns - need more hip.
Short radius turns - need more knee.

[skier888]

About Harb's video, I don't see any conflict between that and our question (about edging control). (Note that HH used to be a member of PSIA demo team. I guess that his skill of doing business is even better than that of skiing.)

Harb teaches tipping from ankle. He teaches primary movements. Hip is not part of the primaries. If you like skiing well, it will be a mistake to dismiss what he has to say because of his personality or rift between him and PSIA. Nobody explains what he focus on better. He has PSIA instructor on his teaching staff with multiple PSIA L3 certs.

[snowrider]

That's the 3 what CSIA promote, is it similar to what you learn

YouTube - CSIA Turn Phase 1

YouTube - CSIA Turn Phase 2

YouTube - CSIA Turn Phase 3

Hi pku - I am not sure. We have turn phases as the following:

1. Initiation phase - when the skier prepares for and begins the new turn.
2. Shaping phase - when the skier guides the skis through the fall line to shape the turn.
3. Finishing phase - when the skier completes the turn and get ready for the new turn.

Are they refer to the same thing as CSIA's turn phases?

[pku]

Hi pku - I am not sure. We have turn phases as the following:

1. Initiation phase - when the skier prepares for and begins the new turn.
2. Shaping phase - when the skier guides the skis through the fall line to shape the turn.
3. Finishing phase - when the skier completes the turn and get ready for the new turn.

Are they refer to the same thing as CSIA's turn phases?

This kind of technical terms is a headache for me, I try not to think too much.

May be Vincent can explain better.

[Observer]

The conclusion is ...

That was a bad question because it did not tell what types of turns it's asking. The technique for long radus turns is different from that for short radius turns.

Long radius turns - need more hip.
Short radius turns - need more knee.

I agree with your above statement using "need more". But to talk about the start of the turn or what facilitates the edge chage, we should start from the bottom up:

Let me quote again from George Thomas, Head Coach Beaver Creek Race Department, PSIA:

"...Another variation is to focus on crossing over the skis with the hips switching from side to side. Again, this changes edges, but in both cases, a gross or large movement of the upper body facilitates the edge change. To roll the edges in this way, say 60 degrees, the shoulders and or hips must travel a large distance, and this takes time. To amp up your skiing, think about changing edges first at the ankles, then knees at the top of the turn..."

"..Once started, you can then build higher edge angle by rolling the knees to the inside of the turn. As pressure builds on the skis through the fall line, the hips can at last begin to move inside creating even more angulation. A key focus point with this technique is that at turn initiation the center of mass (the hip area) does not cross over the skis as much as it moves toward the tips or rather inthe direction of travel of the skis. Edge change starts from the bottom up..."

[Vicente]

This kind of technical terms is a headache for me, I try not to think too much.

May be Vincent can explain better.

Turn Phases are movement patterns. I think that all of ISIA members use the same definition.

[taichiskiing]

If C is the answer from PSIA, then it is clearly different from what some other ski schools teach:

http://skiing.about.com/od/skiingtip1/q ... t-Hips.htm

YouTube - Ski Practice 7: Harald Harb's "Phantom Move"



Yup, HH has said when turning he moves the "feet"/skis first, easy for carving, and he turns well; nevertheless, note his "regular" turn shapes and turning tempos—turn-skiing, kind of sterile (not lively enough). Moving the hips to turn makes skiing much more efficient, "lively"/活生生的, and "playful"/好玩,

YouTube - Taichi Skiing/Flatboarding: free skiing

Also see this on high-end racing techniques:

http://www.youcanski.com/en/coaching/inclination.htm

Not really, according to math, a bended body (angulation) is short than a straight one (inclination), so angulation has a lower center of gravity than inclination, and according to physics, a lower center of gravity is more stable, so, the inclination has narrower [movement] range, i.e. angulation can turn more sharply than inclination, and for balancing, moving the "weight" is quicker than moving the feet, so, angulation is more efficient than inclination.

:)
IS

[Observer]

Not really, according to math, a bended body (angulation) is short than a straight one (inclination), so angulation has a lower center of gravity than inclination, and according to physics, a lower center of gravity is more stable, so, the inclination has narrower [movement] range, i.e. angulation can turn more sharply than inclination, and for balancing, moving the "weight" is quicker than moving the feet, so, angulation is more efficient than inclination.

:)
IS

No arguments from me here.... and do you know why?

Because you are in a world of your own, knocking all established world skiing and WC racing techniques.

Why don't you train some of your younger followers and have them participate in the real world of competition skiing (any discipline will do).

[taichiskiing]

No arguments here.... and do you know why?

Because your knowledge domain too small?

Because you are in a world of your own, knocking all established world skiing and WC racing techniques.

Only little knowledge knocks down the "established" scientific theories and think they know/do better.

Why don't you train some of your younger followers and have them participate in the real world of competition skiing (any discipline will do).

Racing is pretty "limited" skiing as it's confined on man-made courses, and racers' life is about "life style"/disciplines and not directly tied with techniques/skills, nevertheless, given that they have to travel all over the places to compete, not enough time to study and/or experience "real living," most racers have a limited world views and life philosophy, I don't encourage my students to go for that life style. I don't train racers, but "real" skiers to "enjoy" their "real world" skiing.

YouTube - Flatboarding: cruising on Olympic, Heavenly



:)
IS

[Observer]

You need to have your head examined.

[taichiskiing]

You need to have your head examined.

Why? Why not you? Or you are starting to slip into denial?

:)
IS

[Observer]

Why? Why not you? Or you are starting to slip into denial?

:)
IS

Using the same words, phrases, taichiskiing videos, over and over again.

Do you ever think about why people are 'agaist' you?

[skier888]

Standing in the middle of the door way, tip your foot and the hip will move, continue tipping and you will fall and touch the side of the door way. Tipping is the cause, hip move is one of the effects.

Inclination is to balance against the turning force. You are more likely to fall when you hit a bump on the snow surface if that is all you depend on. Angulation is to balance on ski edge. You will find it is easier to recover from a bump if you have more angulation. pku touches on something similar to this on two occasions but he phrases it differently in different context.

If you see people using hip to initiate the turn, you are likely to see unstable upper body and rotations.

BTW, I am not saying rotation is bad. There are rotations that you can see and there are rotations that you can't see.

[PSBoy]

Thanks, snowrider.

It seems that the 'conclusion' is talking about the magnitude instead of the sequence. Anyway, thanks for your quiz.

[PSBoy]

...Tipping is the cause, hip move is one of the effects...
...Inclination is to balance against the turning force...
...Angulation is to balance on ski edge...

Well said